Title: 12 Steps to Recovery
Description: A hard look at AA and NA practices
Xenubarb - July 24, 2007 10:19 AM (GMT)
I knew there was something about AA that I didn't like. Forced to sit through a number of meetings as a result of a DUI, I was disturbed by more than the weak coffee and fug of cigarette smoke.
Many people see AA as the only alternative to a life of addiction. They may not like it, but have been convinced it's the only way to stay clean and sober.
In this well-written website, you will understand why 12 Step programs might get your spider senses tingling. People who have been inside a Narconon facility will quickly recognize strong similarities with the control mechanisms utilized by the Scientology program.
Now, I'm not saying you should run away from 12 Step programs, but you should read this and take the time to understand the tactics they use to control their members and keep them in a condition of dependence upon the program.
One of the things that really bothered me was the repeated mantra that the individual is powerless without spiritual intervention. You get all the credit for getting yourself into the mess, but none of the credit for having the strength and courage to quit! That seems hardly fair, doesn't it?
Read this site, but pay attention to the section on alternate views on recovery. Otherwise, you might get depressed, because if you've been in 12 Step programs at all, you will realize that you, like me, vaguely realized something was wrong with the whole 12 Step lifestyle.
Like L. Ron Hubbard, Bill W. wasn't the noble, god-like genius his organization makes him out to be. This is truly an eye opener!
I'm posting this link, not to discourage or depress you. I hope you will understand that, without a grasp of the kinds of tactics used by groups like this, you can keep bouncing from one to another, experiencing the same things over and over, until you can recognize the methods of disempowerment and control employed successfully by too many organizations in operation today.
http://orange-papers.org
mr.mac - July 26, 2007 04:10 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Xenubarb @ Jul 24 2007, 02:19 AM) |
I knew there was something about AA that I didn't like. Forced to sit through a number of meetings as a result of a DUI, I was disturbed by more than the weak coffee and fug of cigarette smoke.
Many people see AA as the only alternative to a life of addiction. They may not like it, but have been convinced it's the only way to stay clean and sober.
In this well-written website, you will understand why 12 Step programs might get your spider senses tingling. People who have been inside a Narconon facility will quickly recognize strong similarities with the control mechanisms utilized by the Scientology program.
Now, I'm not saying you should run away from 12 Step programs, but you should read this and take the time to understand the tactics they use to control their members and keep them in a condition of dependence upon the program.
One of the things that really bothered me was the repeated mantra that the individual is powerless without spiritual intervention. You get all the credit for getting yourself into the mess, but none of the credit for having the strength and courage to quit! That seems hardly fair, doesn't it?
Read this site, but pay attention to the section on alternate views on recovery. Otherwise, you might get depressed, because if you've been in 12 Step programs at all, you will realize that you, like me, vaguely realized something was wrong with the whole 12 Step lifestyle.
Like L. Ron Hubbard, Bill W. wasn't the noble, god-like genius his organization makes him out to be. This is truly an eye opener!
I'm posting this link, not to discourage or depress you. I hope you will understand that, without a grasp of the kinds of tactics used by groups like this, you can keep bouncing from one to another, experiencing the same things over and over, until you can recognize the methods of disempowerment and control employed successfully by too many organizations in operation today.
[b]http://orange-papers.org |
***PLEASE KNOW THAT I AM BIASED TOWARD AA, AS IT HAS SAVED MY LIFE. THAT BEING SAID... TAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.
It is apparent that Xenu has a few misconceptions about what an alcoholic and an addict is. I hope that I can clarify this a bit. It should also be noted that for any and all research that has been conducted and concluded on the website referenced, there is other data that suggests the exact opposite. For example, if one piece of data proves that AA isn't helpful, other data suggests that AA is. That is just the reality of the peer reviewed and published literature.
It is frequently thought that alcoholics and addicts are amoral and irresponsible people that need to grow up and "just stop using". If that were the case many would have already. The fact is that the great majority of addicts cannot stop and stay stopped... no matter what. The key here is stay stopped. The addict/alcoholic cannot do this. If you can do this... maybe you are not an addict/alcoholic. Maybe you are just a hard drinker. Many fall into this class and ultimately end up in AA/NA. These are not the folks I'm talking about. I'm talking about the individual that cannot stop no matter what. No matter how sufficient of a reason he/she has to stop and stay stopped. They cannot stop and stay stopped. Let me rephrase what I just mentioned... can you manage the decision to stop and stay stopped? (after reading this, I realized that I implied that an addict cannot get clean. What I mean is on his or her own human power... can they manage the decision to stop and stay stopped.) Keep in mind that key here is stay stopped.
Here is just one inconsistency that I noticed on the this website...
The Twelve Steps do not even tell you to quit drinking, or to help anyone else to quit drinking, either
While this is not stated in the actual twelve steps... AA's primary purpose is clearly stated and read at the beggining of every meeting... "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to recover from alcoholism".
Here is another...
Step Two is just as bad: it teaches people that they are insane
Interestingly, if you read the book in it's entire reference, it clearly states insanity around alcohol. Look folks, taking a drink in light of what always happens, alcoholics are starangely insane around alcohol. I want to leave it but I can't...
This website makes way too many broad statements and claims that are just not true... but I can see how a pissed off hard drinker ended up in AA and decided to create this website.
I mean damn, if we don't have a free program for suffering addicts and alcoholics, what the hell do we have? Therapists? I'm a therapist folks, and I hate to say that for the real alcoholic/addict there is very little a professional can do. We cannot behaviorally treat an addict. We cannot cognitively treat an addict. We can treat hard drinkers and moderate drinkers. We can work with those living with substance abuse disorders. I'm talking about a real addict. This condition is pretty hopeless. I mean Carl Jung even makes reference to this, that there is little that can be done for him or her.
Whew... I can't even get started on this one folks. As I mentioned, I am biased as hell! AA is not religion and never will be. Please don't take everything that you read on this website literally.
But this is just my humble opinion. I'm sure another time when I have more time, I will chime back and in work a little more on my soap box. Until then...
mr.mac :D
Xenubarb - July 26, 2007 11:39 PM (GMT)
Dude,
This isn't a debate. However, you might want to consider what the website has to offer, I'm just sayin'.
A lot of people say Scientology saved their life. In fact, there's a poster here from Narconon who gives them props.
But, whatever. If you like it, that's fine. I am betting that other people might have gotten the same uncomfortable reaction to all the chanting and rote responding, and this website explains why they might feel that way.
However, there are probably websites that focus on the positives and negatives of 12 step. This site is only meant to give different points of view on these things.
Narconon works for some people. 12 step programs work for some people. Taping a crystal on your forehead would work for some people.
I think people should look at everything, positive and negative, before deciding what might be best for them.
mr.mac - July 27, 2007 02:05 AM (GMT)
Indeed! Well put Xenu. As I mentioned I am extremely biased in a sence.
I agree that looking at both sides is helpful.
Hope you're not mad at me Xenu..??
BTW... are we the only two members left here??? :huh: :huh: :huh:
mr.mac
Xenubarb - July 27, 2007 02:18 PM (GMT)
Mad at you?
Heavens no! If we can't disagree civilly, we're no better than the Scientologists.
However, I will say that I've seen the self-debasement at meetings. You are a worm, you crummy drunk, without Xenu you're worthless, weak, and a loser. (okay, they do say "higher power as you perceive it.")
I really, really don't agree with that. Nor do I care much for the attempt at distancing the program away from religion, when religion clearly plays a huge role!
"I don't know why God made my cat claw my waterbed, but He did."
--woman at AA meeting
I don't know why that woman thought it was a good idea to let her cat into her bedroom when she had a waterbed in there. Illogic like that just irritates me. But, whatever. If it helps you, that's a Good Thing. Lotta negativity in there, though. But Bill W.'s history of involvement with that old-time religion of the 1900s explains a lot.
I am currently battling tobacco without a whole lot of success. At the moment, I'm what you might term a "dry smoker." Got the patch. Want a stick. Bad!
I don't know about the membership thing. There were three, now there are two. But all our posters are present if you look at the membership list. The button is on the upper right part of the page.
I've been having fun lately. Every morning I go into Admin mode and check who is trying to sign up. So far, only one person has not been a spammer. It gives me deep satisfaction when I delete their applications. Considering how they nearly destroyed this message board, I'm allowed. :)
mr.mac - July 28, 2007 10:44 PM (GMT)
You bring up a good point that meetings can become toxic. I have singlehandedly witnessed a lot of this over the years. I try and stay away from these meetings.
There is no quality control in AA. On any given day you can get something different. I do find that it's a great place to find other alcoholics and addicts to work with though. There have been many a day when this saved my ass!
I also think that it's safe to say that AA meetings do not represent the program as it was outlined in 1939... in the book. I understand that the program was greatly infuenced by the Oxford movement. I really have no opinion on that. I do think that AA meetings have become a place where you can hear everything under the sun... including shitty advice and outright negativity. On the other hand, there is a tremendous amount of hope being offered in the right places. For example, if someone were to find me in a meeting, I wouldn't drop on them a laundry list of my problems. Rather I would pull them with a vision of hope and recovery. I know several others who are committed to this endeavor. We are all much better than we use to be! ;)
mr.mac