I figured out how to allow posts to this forum. Go crazy! idiot.gif

I am interested to find out if there has been a complaint recently with respect to Stone Hawk, and what is the nature of the complaint?

Hi
I wanted to introduce myself.

I'm been very interested for about two years in understanding the full extent of Scientology and all their front groups. I became especially interested in Narconon and Scientology's hatred towards mental health. I was very disturbed about how they deny people medical care as well or try to guilt people into not seeking professional help. I am very concerned their lies will keep people from seeking help.
Along the way I have read many, many documents and stories about people being abused, neglected and exploited by Scientology.

I have been a nurse (RN) for 28 years. I have worked in many areas of the medical field. I have been the owner of a state licensed facility that I had to build from scratch. It was not a Rehab, it was an Adult Day Care and Respite for Elders.
I am very familiar with state licensing and all the regulations and standards that go into licensing.

I have also worked in Hospice, Hospital and Developmental Disabilities.

I think the thing that set me off the most was that Scientology thinks the people I have spent years helping are non-people and low on their scale. According to them these are the NOT ABLE.

I DO NOT feel that Narconon is a sound alternative treatment to medical rehab.
I have read their research and found it completely lacking. They have no outside studies that have been completed by qualified professionals.


I would like to take what I have learned and help others.

Why?

At this age I have come to the conclusion that Love, Truth and Giving is what makes the world go round and creates happiness. :D

Love
Fear Not

Wow, all this bashing is pretty sad. I've got a whole different story to tell.
I don't know who all you people are that go on about the brain washing, the bad treatment, the drug use, etc... in the Narconon program but that is COMPLETELY the opposite of what I know to be true.
1. I'm a mother of an addict. My son started using drugs at age 15, he's been in jail on drug related charges 17 times!, he's been in every court appointed program, every in and out patient program that we could find, we tried everything.
1. I'm a born again Christian, our whole family is and I very much understand that Narconon isn't a Christian based program. We did try several Christian based programs by the way - they did not help changed my son.
For all of you who whine about the "bad treatment & conditions" that you feel is recieved during the Narconon program, I sugest that you visit your local crack house or drug house because your kids want that kind of a lifestyle and choose to hang out there - it's a real cozy experience... That's where my son lived when he needed a dry semi warm place to be, otherwise he lived under bridges, abandon cars and other terrific areas like that - and let me add that this was all by his choice, addicts are willing to put up with a lot for there drugs, it's only when they go into rehab that they all of a sudden complain about "over crowding and unsafe conditions" GET REAL here folks!
Lets talk about brain washing!!! Do you know what drugs do to your brain, you can't get much closer to hell and all it's inhabitants, it's pure evil, it's lies, and every form of horror that can be imagined. My son's spiritual health is important to me, but let me tell you that even if Narconon was brainwashing people (which it is not) anything would be better than allowing the addict in your life to continue with the darkness that drug abuse brings.
Drug use is all around us, it's in every neighborhood and it's getting worse. I don't know about you but if I have to have addicts living around me, I'd rather they live in a rehab facility next door than a meth lab. The work involved dto get someone off of drugs is hard work, it's hard work for the addict and from what I've read in some of these anti-Narconon sites, the people who are complaining didn't like doing the hard work. Maybe there used to "taking a pill" to fix the need, but changing the behavior of drug use is probally the hardest fight of your life and it's seems that many just don't want to work that hard, it's easier to make up excuses and point fingers and blame elsewhere.
The bottom line... the program works! After 15 years of drug addiction, my son is clean and has been for almost 2 years. The sauna treatment made one of the most signaficant differences, it was grueling and hard but it cleaned out his body and gave him a fresh start to begin learning why he has made the distructive choices in his life and more importantly, how to choose differently. My son isn't just clean now, he's a whole different person, a man of integrity, of honesty... a man who for the first time in almost 15 years has a promising future ahead of him.
He was drug tested frequently during the program, he was fed wonderful food and looks better than he ever did before, he was given the chance to attend the church of his choice during treatment, he had the oppurtunity to hike and do the outside things he loved to do, he recieved much help with the various court issues he had, Narcanon flew him back and forth from California to Navada and back for court related things at no additional costs, they encourage him, they didn't allow him to give the same lame excuses he had used to others in the past, and he was NOT brainwashed to "their" thinking in any way.
I'll tell you what Narcanon did - they turned a long term meth user, a lier, a cheat, a manipulator, a theif and a flake into a man who has a heart to help others, a has a personal strength to live drug free and become the man God has made him to be.

Hillsidegirl,

That's wonderful news! You are but one of the few who have anything good that came out of Narconon. I am happy to hear that your son is clean. You should, however, keep one thing in mind... there is one particular site of Narconon's that most of us are complaining about. So while the center your son attended may have worked, another center may not run its facilities/students/program the same way. From what we understand, the one I'm referring to is absolutely awful. They are individually owned, so practices are not 100% the same.

You also should remember that one thing that works for one person, may not work for the rest of the world.

I'm very happy to hear the success your son has had, and thank you for your input. However, our loved ones were not so lucky to have obtained the same care that your son has. So it's our right to share about the mistreatment, the lies, the facility conditions, etc.

Congratulations to your son, and God Bless.

Okay, I hope that I am posting this in the correct spot. I will hopefully have the opportunity to share my experiences at Narconon Arrowhead with many others in an attempt to be helpful only. I was actually one of the first new admits at the Arrowhead facility (I suppose in 2000-2001) and I would actually go on to be discharged/readmitted on a couple of occaisons before being "kicked out" sometime in 2002. Please keep in mind that I had been in several treatment centers up until this point (all of which were funded by my father, thus the "non-traditional approach" looked very good to him and my mother, both being desperate parents at that time). This was my first "beef" with Narconon. But I'm not sure that this is any different than any other facillity is. My biggest "beef" to this day was that the Narconon staff clearly communicated with my father that they were absolutely not affiliated with the Church of Scientology. They reiterated this with him and looking back I don't know how dad was so nieve, seeing as how they had photos of L. RON all over the place. Another "beef" was being exposed to completely unsubstantiated treatment (and if you disagree just do a little research, ie., drug residues DON'T lodge in fatty cells!) that is provided by UNQUALIFIED individuals. I specifically remember that there were very few certified drug and alcohol treatment professionals, although after review I have noticed that most of them are now certified drug/alcohol counselors. BUT THAT DOESNT MATTER BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDA. This agenda might even in of itself be a violation of the ethical agreement that they enter witht the state when they become certified counselors (ie, they agree to "Do no harm" and we all know that the program is debatebly harmful/helpful). Not to mention that the addiction treatment community nearly disregards Narconon completely, in fact most addiction professionals that I know have never even heard of the place, much less the techniques that Narconon uses with their clients.

Wow... that has all been on my mind for some time now. I would like to also report that I finally did get clean and sober, not from anything Narconon taught me. I am educated and am working on an advaced degree (ie, M.S) in Counseling and am a registed Counselor Intern in the State of Texas. What does this mean... well, only that I have a clear understanding of what works and what doesn't and what ethical practice is and what it isn't. I have an opinion that is supported by research and more important, practical experience. I spent nearly a year and a half at Narconon Arrowhead and had, at one point, completed the entire "program".

Thanks for listening to me you all.

I'm just curious if this poster knows what a "shill" is? A shill is someone who works for the company that they are praising and acts as someone who has received fantastic service. To me you sound just like someone who works for Narconon... and after spending nearly a year with those folks, I got really good at spotting them.

I'm just curious what your son is doing as part of his on going recovery? One of my biggest problems with Narconon is that the only option for "continuing care", or long term care if you will, was to sign a contract and go to work for them. Other than that, MOST of the folks that graduate from the program get a hand full of certificates and a pat on the back (oh yeah, and also a complete set of the program books) then are sent home. Now they are back home and have no resources for recovery. They have no outreach (at least not when I went throught the program), no community support at all. This is surely a recipie for disaster... especially for addicts who are living with a chronic illness. Even addicts in recovery live with it on a daily basis and thus they require others in recovery to continue to reinforce this lifestyle, everyday. This has been my experience.

JMO
mr.mac

mr,mac,

Thank you very much about the insight regarding aftercare.
It is very important after treatment to become involved for on-going
support in your community. I had wondered what happens to those that get discharged, but were unwilling to become employees or join Scientology.

I believe aftercare is also one of the standards for licensing.

Hello again,
I wanted to thank Sweetz416 for the nice reply to my post, even though we see differently on the Narconon discussion their comments back to me we well thought though and non agressive.
I guess my question to you all would be... why are you bashing the whole Narconon program if it's just one paritcular site that is so awful? Why not name this site and it's issues and seperate it from the other facilities that may be doing good?
Can I really be in such a small minority in having positive results and experiences about the Narconon's program? It seems to me that this program has been around for a very long time and has had hundreds of people go through it, how do you think it has lasted all this time if it's so terrible?
I totally get that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another, my son has entered several other programs in the past that didn't "work" for him but it has never occured to me to write up my negitive comments and thoughts about those programs even though I haven't agreed totally with the way they ran things. The bottom line was my son didn't quit, he lied his way through their programs, said the right words, did the time and left unchanged, but is that the programs fault?
Mr Mac - All I can say is that your powers of observation in "spotting" need some serious help, I'd sugest lazer surgery for you.
In my experience people who accuse other people of being dishonest tend to be so themselves, you may want to check your own log before looking for mine.
Just to set the record straight I do not work for or am I employed by Narconon in any way. I'm a mom who scraped up the money for my son to attend the program in order to save myself the pain of seeing my son die before I did. I flew out to the Nevada facility a few months after he had been there and I've been to the Newport Beach facility two times to visit him. I am on a referral list for anyone who would like my imput on the program and I'm happy to share what I know - that this program WORKED and my son is drug free and also is a new person.
My question to the whole group of people on this site is this - What else do you suggest? What would you point addicts to rather than trying to keep them from?
I looked all over the internet for help before I sent my son to Narconon, most of the programs are so short that there is no-way a person with a long term addiction can make any lasting change... (I found this out from experiece) the costs of private programs are horrible and I didn't have insurance that would cover any of the costs. My husband and I have worked with college age kids in our area for several years now, several sadly have become serious drug uses and even though they have had treatment programs, follow up and continuing care, sponsers, prayer and support from their families, community and church they continue to struggle with their addiction, especially those on meth - the "cure" rate is extreemly grim. Tell me - What advice do you have for them? What advice do you have for me? Should I not tell them about what Narconon has done for my son? How could I not?
We all have the right to speak our opinions and share our experiences, but we also have a responsibility to be fair - Are you so sure that Narconon is so terrible that you'd be willing to fight to keep other people from going there or are you just angry because it didn't work for you? for me..., I'm very glad that I didn't see these sites until after my son graduated from the program.
Thanks for allowing me to share - God Bless you all.
Jeannie[B][U]

Hello and Welcome Hillside Girl,

I am glad that your son is doing so well.....he is in a minority when it comes to the addicts that pay high fees to enroll into a Narconon faciliy but nonetheless consider yourself blessed that he was able to kick such a horrible addiction!

From one Christian to another....your only concern with Narconon at this point should be that it is Scientology born/bread and they try their hardest to teach them this instead of Godly strength. How is God's light supposed to shine amongst those that need Him the most? Without God's strength would your son have done so well? What about those that don't know Him? These addicts that are vulnerable to the brainwashing that Scientology/Narconon forces on their beaten up minds?

Aren't we supposed to be this light? How are we to spread the seeds that Jesus told us to if we are in alignment with what Narconon/Scientology is teaching these lost souls?

I wish you the best and will keep you and your family in my prayers. You can email me at any time at kimberly44857@yahoo.com

Thanks Kimberly,
I'd love to email you and I thank you for your reply.
Looking forward to talking more with you when I have a bit more time.
As a Christian I do believe that God's light shines best in dark places!!!
Thanks,
Jeannie

I sincerely appologize if I offended you in any way... that was not my intention. And like the other posters, I too am glad that your son has found something in his life that has given him a reprieve from his addiction.

First, I'm not so sure that there is a "cure" for addiction. Thus, a program that offers continuing care is essential. Addiction is chronic in nature. How often do we hear stories of people that stay sober for years only to buy the old idea that since they have been sober for some time, "certanly they can't still be addicts". 12 step based programs, christian based programs... these programs offer people resources that addicts can continue to tap into years and years after their last use. Narconon offers no such resource... at least they never did to me. If it's a spiritual problem... then it requres a spirtual solution. JMHO.

Second, programs that utilize 12 step facilitation, cognitive-behavioral therapy, group therapy, family therapy, biofeedback/neurofeedback treatment, pharmacotherapy, etc. etc., have been studied extensively and have been found to be helpful. Be careful about what stats you believe... ie, poor recovery rates for meth addicts, 75% success rates with Narconon. Every client at Narconon has to write successes stories... it's required to move forward in the program. You attest and then write a success. I imagine this is where they get the 75% from! Research PROJECT MATCH if you want a good read on what works... I have never read any empirically supported research that indicated the Narconon program is helpful. Just a bunch of biased Narconon MD's and celebs. Have a third party review the program... NO WAY... this would never happen. And when it does, ie. the state of OK, it is almost always critcized for it's unsubstatiated findings and nonsense like materials. This is a fact.. not just cinicism.

Third, my biggest beef with Narconon was the outright lie that they were not associated with the Church of Scientology. They suckered Mom and Dad, and for that I will forgive them... but not forget. JMHO.

I would be careful with any program that encourages unqualified, uncredentialed, freshly sober (3 months???) staff to work with my child. If that is what you think your child needs... then by all means Arrowhead is a comfortable place, ie. good food, soft bed, but not a treatment option in my opinion that I would reccomend.

mr.mac :D

My son attended the Stonehawk facility. I specifically asked about his ability to attend church and was assured 1) the facility/program was not based or connected to Scientology 2) that he would be allowed to attend church each week

On the first Sunday he was still in the withdrawal unit (day 5) but was never symptomatic of withdrawal. The second Sunday they got in the van but came upon a train, my son suggested an alternate route but they took them all to Starbucks instead. The third Sunday they spent the morning chasing him around the lounge trying to isolate him (somehow they had heard he was leaving the program that day).

It does not matter how "miraculous" a program is. Lying about religion and denying a student Christian services is wrong. Perhaps this is unique to Stonehawk but it is a true experience, my son had no reason to lie about this.

ANY program promoting false information of this nature is wrong . If the facility wants to follow scientology, this is fine but it should be disclosed so Christians and Non-Christians can make an Informed Decision. In any other health care setting, informed consent is required.

Very interesting that you bring up informed choice. Maybe clients should be informed that the practices of Narconon are identical to that of the Church of Scientology... not that the two aren't associated or that the program just is based on the "works of L. Ron Hubbard". The bottom line is that if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck. Narconon is Scientology.

I will say that Arrowhead students were able to attend church on Sunday if they chose to. But in my opinion this wasn't because they genuinely felt like the clients had spiritual needs that needed to be addressed. The Narconon program makes reference to spiritual needs, but they certainly never addressed them during the program. I felt more like the Church option was their way of appearing to be not affiliated with any Church in particular.

Once again... JMHO :D

Thanks to everyone that has posted on this site. In our desperation we sent our son to Arrowhead without the thorough research that we would have done had we not been in such a state of panic. After reading this site and some other sites similar we removed our son from the center after 7 days. He had just been released from detox so hopefully didn't witness too much craziness (he said that he noticed a lot things that he thought was "stupid", but was concerned about mentioning this to us for fear we would think he was "just not working the program". We removed him as soon as we could get to him and took him directly to a legitimate rehab center. The difference in the two centers were apparent immediately. When we got to Arrowhead and entered the facility to retrieve our son the first thing we came face to face with was the enormous picuture of L Ron Hubbard. The facility we now have him in has a picture of Jesus in their quiet room. That right there speaks volumes to me. I am so sorry for other families that enter into this program in desperation trying to help their loved ones only to have them indoctrinated into Scientology. My problem also is the dishonesty. If they are a Scientology recruitment center, and they are proud of Scientology, why would they not admit to this? Why deceive people in their most vulnerable time? Maybe, because parents wouldn't pay $27,000 to have their children brainwashed.

You say your son is "a new person."
Is he a Scientologist now?

I can't help but notice that your argument parallels the defense thrown up by Narconon representatives...the suggestion that the people here are lying, for example.

These are the facts. ALL Narconon facilities lie.
They lie about their connection to Scientology.
They lie about their success rate.
They lie about the qualifications of their counselors, the presence of qualified medical personnel, and the efficacy and safety of the Purif.
Heck, they lie about the Purif, too.

I find it interesting that you found it necessary to include the disclaimer, "I don't work for Narconon" in your post. Scientologists often lie about their association with Scientology. There's no reason why anyone associated with Narconon WOULDN'T lie about it. It's a common pattern amongst the consumers of L. Ron Hubbard's toxic product.

I have no doubt that Narconon does help a certain percentage of people. Everything works for somebody, even just quitting with no help whatsoever results in a 10% success rate.

That's 8% better than Narconon's 2%, a figure anyone can arrive at by looking at how they managed to claim 70% success by omitting the dropouts.

which one is bad? what about narconon arrowhead oklahoma, i have looked into going there, just curious thanks

Wow!!! I'm so happy that you have made this decision for your child. Keep in mind that Narconon will always claim to be the way to sobriety. They will by all means try and convice you that traditional treatment doesn't work or that they offer an alternative that has nearly a perfect outcome. This is a lie... a big lie that is funded and fueled by the Church of Scientology. They will never admit to this and will do anything they can to get your money while providing relatively no treatment. Good looking out parents!

mr.mac

I just wanted to let everyone know that I will be going on a retreat for three months and won't have access to the internet. So I hope that all of you will continue to support each other. I feel strongly about this forum staying a float... so keep posting and keep sharing your experiences. I will return soon!

mr.mac

Hi. I just joined this group - a little late and about $15,000 short. My son was in NN Stone Hawk for about 5 weeks from February to March. He was doing very well and felt good about himself. Then his medical records were read by two security guards and a custodian. The custodian (female) told him she'd read his records in a way that suggested to him that if he wouldn't have a relationship with her specifics from his confidential file might get spread around. He also felt an implied threat from the security guards that if he didn't toe the line that they would use the information against him.

After that, I still tried to talk him into staying until I listened to Vince Daniel's shows and realized that NN Stone Hawk personnel had lied to me about any connection to Scientology. At that point, I told my son if he wanted to leave I would come get him. I am sorry we had to pull him. He was doing well, but their own people messed it up for him. He felt like he couldn't work his program any more and that he constantly had to watch his back. I was angry that they had lied to us.

I hear what hillside mom has said about people complaining because they didn't want to do the work. But my son was doing the work. He has a glowing letter of how well he had been doing up to that point. But, they violated his privacy and messed with an already messed up head. He was hopeful and I was hopeful. I was sleeping for the first time in a year! And now we're back to nothing. He's relapsed, he's using, he's disappearing, he's stealing and lying again. And I blame NN Stone Hawk. He needs another treatment center but I borrowed to the hilt to send him to NN Stone Hawk and can't afford anything else. He is an addict and mentally ill. He is suicidal. We have filed complaints all over the place but how can I get my money back? I've talked to lawyers but it would probably cost me as much as I could get back. Jai Ehlert won't even respond to my letters. Any help out there?

Please tell him to quit considering suicide! I know it's hard, and been there, done that, I do understand. He can email me privately if he needs someone to talk about this stuff with and I'll keep it private.

I hope that others will share their thoughts here as well. Trust me, being cut loose from Narconon is a Good Thing. Scientology is full of "success stories" of suicide and misery, and Narconon is a gateway to all that wonderful stuff.

Hi im Jinkii,
im a critic of scientology and all its fronts, my recent work has involved getting the panorama program to Xenutv and im currently trying to get the British Government to revoke the Charities Commision taxfree status from Narconon and Criminon removed through seemingly endless rewrites of the Petition to 10 Downing Street.

Jinkii

Thanks for joining, Jinkii!

Were you interested in Scn when the Mayor of London denied Narconon a permit for a demo? I've never heard much about what was behind that, but thought the Mayor made the right decision!

Welcome to this forum. Unfortuately, by the time most parents and loved ones get to this site they have had a similar experience as you have. I'm sorry to hear that your son is using agian. If he is a real addict then anything short of a vital experience in recovery will most likely avail him nothing. Now you might be asking, "Where can he have one of those experiences?" I would recommend making contact with the local recovery groups in your community... AA, NA, CA, etc. Tell them what is on your plate. If the groups are healthy, there should be several eager people willing to work with your son... ie, what we call a 12th step call. Until then, I would highly recommend that you look into Alanon in your community. You too have a lot of recovery ahead of you... recovery from a loved one's addiction.

And best of all, these resources won't cost you anything. Their main objective is to be helpful only.

Keep us posted on your son.

mac

Welcome! It sounds like you have a lot to offer this community! More recently it's been pretty slow on the forum. We need some new blood around here.

mac

Xenu - How are we going to get more people involved on this forum?... easy... we'll just wait for Narconon to yank a few more people around!

mac

If we offer the service... they will come :P

Hello to everyone, here's some new blood to the forum. My fiance is in StoneHawk now. He's in his third week. When confronted by myself and his family he admited to having a drug and alcohol problem that he needed help with. The problem is that his family has blown the drug use way out of proportion and blamed every bad thing that has ever happened on drugs. He says that alcohol and self esteem were his biggest problems. I agree with him. His family gave him an ultimatum, go into treatment or you are out of the family. He was forced to go into stonehawk because his family felt it was the "best program" in the country. I just wanted him to get help and believed what they told me. As with so many, it wasn't till after he got into the program that him and I found out that it was a scientology scam. I want him out before more damage is done. His family stands by their word that if he walks out they are done with him. What a horrible position to be in. He does say that he is doing OK and feeling better and then he adds, that it's most likely due to the fact that he is not drinking or using any drugs and getting some sleep. At first he said that the program was crazy and their ideas were way out there. That the facility was a dump and that everything that had been told to him prior to signing up is not to be the truth. Now that he is just finishing his second week of sauna he feels like maybe it has helped him some and he wants to at least finish sauna and see what is next. This scares me most of all, maybe they are begining to get to him. So I'm caught in the middle and looking for as much information as I can find on Stonehawk to forward to him. Thanks

I understand what you say about the family but even scientology policy says that people have to be there on their own self-determinism or they are made to leave.

If your boyfriend says he's progressing in his recovery there and wants to complete the step he's, let it go until the step is completed. I would not interfere at this point. Sounds like your boyfriend is trying to handle his addiction first, which is senior to all, including the influences of his family, which I suspect are, to them, frustratingly sincere.

If your boyfriend posted here and complained that he did not want to do the program but his parents were forcing him, I would advise him of what to say and do to help him get out. Thing is, he is a willing participant. His parent probably paid for it and are fed up with the effects of his addiction and want him to recover.
Sounds like their last effort to help in a long history with a son who is a drug addict. If you want him to recover, first andforemost, let him make his own choices on this. Don't encourage him to stop while he's making progress. It's not Narconon that is helping. It's your boyfriends to willingness to try and complete something that he started in order to get the drug addiction monkey off his back.
When he done, next is the study time. When that comes in and he reads the scientology indoctrination stuff, he'll be in a better place to decide if he wants to stay or go. That's the time to talk with him. Not now. Wait out the sauna part. See what happens.


This is my first post here. I am a former scientologist, in for 20 yrs out 10 yrs now. I consider myself a well versed critic of scientology.

I am here because I have been receiving correspondence about and from other Narconon victims who are having trouble getting refunds for a lack of service or fraudulent and false statements and advertising. Via the internet, I am collecting information on existing and past lawsuits against various Narconon facilities with the intention of compiling a list of of attorney contacts who are experienced in dealing with cases against Narconon. As well, I am compiling a list of links to state and county agencies that can receive civil complaints by victims who have sued or are being forced to sue to get a refund.

I believe the information is important for documenting what I believe is a federal issue, handleable through federal government agencies that deal with consumer fraud, advertising deception and fraud and the practice of medicine without proper licensing.

I also believe the Narconon detox- Purification Run Down programs are one and the same and that the church of scientology's claim that the Purification RD program is a 'spiritual' program which people donate money for, is not separate or distinct from the Narconon and NY Detox programs, which us the same trademark registered formula for supposidly 'cleansing' away the drug residue.

The Church of Scientology may imply that Narconon is separate from them, and visa versa. The church has been avoiding the responsibility to have an independent scientific examination of the program because they claim it's spiritual in nature, which is just not true. They cannot have it both ways.

Mary
xscilentologist