This is Narconon Stonehawks response to the Vince Daniels Show.

http://www.narcononstonehawk.com/blog/2007...n-under-attack/

Narconon Under Attack
Recently, Narconon Stonehawk has been under attack by the Vince Daniels
radio program. No drug rehabilitation program can work 100% of the time
for 100% of its clients. It is not uncommon for those who refuse to be
helped to blame the program rather than themselves. It is also very
common for the parents who enable the addict to also blame the program
rather than blame the individual. The truth is that many people enter a
drug rehabilitation program to appease parents or the law and then
deliberately leave or behave in a manner that gets them kicked out so
they can continue to use drugs. Then, they turn around and say
“narconon stinks, they’re full of BS, they are only interested in taking
our money, they are abusive…etc.” which is just justification for the
addict to go out and use drugs. The addict then continues to get to do
what they want to do guilt free because they tried, but Narconon failed.

Parents are naturally enablers, and would oftentimes not want to put
the blame on themselves or the addict, but turn to saying there is
something wrong with what Stone Hawk did. This sort of thing is very
common in the drug rehab industry. Parents understandably get very
angery when they spend a large sum of money on the hopes of treatment
for thier children, and when they lose that money because the person is
unwilling to be helped it is all too easy for them to take that anger
out on the program.

Altohugh Narconon Stonehawk is in no way associated with Scientology,
the Narconon Program was created by L. Ron Hubbard, the same person who
founded Scientology. This Vince Daniels, for whatever reason, has a
problem with scientologists. Because of his misconcepton that Narconon
is associated with scientology he feels the need to attack it too.
Narconon does not teach or practice scientology in it’s drug rehab
program. Yet Vince daniels goes to great legnths to degrade a drug
rehab program that has saved the lives of thousands of people and
families. What makes these attacks unfair is he only seeks out people
who are dissatisfied with the program to speak. At no time does he
bring in the comments or letters of those who swear by it. His website
and radio show are filled with people who have terrible things to say
about Stone Hawk, but these are all people, or parents of people, who
have not successfully made it throught the program to no fault of Stone
Hawk’s.

Drug addicts lie, parents of drug addicts believe their lies, these lies
then go on the Vince Daniels Show. We respect the rights of Vince
Daniels to print and say whatever he choses on his radio show and blog.
This great nation was built on the rights to do as such. But, his
biased and false beliefs prevent him from telling both sides of the
story. Truth be told, Narconon Stonehawk has saved lives. It has
brought destroyed families back together. People who stuck with the
program and actually took it in lead lives of productivity when they
were once hopeless. Approximately 75% of the people who enter the
Narconon Program complete it with success. That means 25% of those who
entered did not. Of course a small percentage of that 25% is going to
have a voice speaking out against the program. Way to seek out that
small percentage Vince, and slam an organization that saves people from
the grips of addiction for your own personal gain. you’re a real
contribution to human history.

Interesting post, in which Narconon spokespeople blame Vince Daniels, the addicts, and the parents. It fails to address the fraudulent and medically unsound program imposed, the disgusting conditions and abuses suffered by people who paid thousands of dollars for the priviledge of having to smell somebody's finger after said finger was groped around within a staffer's pants.

It fails to acknowlege the links between Scientology and Narconon; rather, responding with a flat out lie! Narconon lies (no pun!) directly under the Association for Better Living and Education (A.B.L.E.) which is an umbrella under which the Scientology "social betterment" front groups are found. ABLE is directly under RTC control, the governing body of Scientology, Inc.

When they claim the courses given to Narconon clients aren't related to Scientology, that too is a blatant lie. Courses such as the TRs are purchased by practicing Scientology customers. If the program is so great, why do they feel compelled to lie about the link between Narconon and Scientology?

Narconon Stone Hawk is not the only Narconon facility with horror stories. Yet we are supposed to believe that everyone in the world is lying about it but them? Maybe 75% of clients do complete the Narconon program. However, it is estimated that 60-70% of Narconon graduates go on to become Scientologists.

It is therefore no wonder that the happy testimonials all have a sameness about them. If you hear one, you've heard them all, full of anecdotal vaguaries like, "Narconon saved my life."

The medical facts about aspects of their program are irrefutable science. No amount of fairy-tale accounts can change the hard facts about sauna and niacin overexposure.

Way to seek out a troubled, vulnerable segment of society to prey on, Narconon! Way to recruit new Scientology fodder, by replacing an addiction to drugs with an addiction to L. Ron Hubbard's creepily effective mental conditioning process!

Quit whining, clean up your act, and stop trying to play the victim. The fact is, Narconon is an ineffective, unscientific, potentially dangerous con game that targets vulnerable people when they most desperately need help for your own personal gain.

L. Ron Hubbard once said, "The criminal always accuses others of his crimes."
He stole it, as he stole so much else when fabricating his slick confidence game, but the heart of the statement is true, as anyone who knows anything about Narconon and Scientology can see from this self-promotional, whining defense from Narconon representatives.

Thanks for sharing the blog. I went to the website and registered, I hope I get to post on the blog. I do not take kindly to being called a liar, integrity means a lot to me. Once again, the Stonehawk blog is "vague" and talks in sweeping generalities and lies (eg, Vince Daniels only allows negative people on.....). I do not understand why they would post such an unprofessional commentary complete without spell checking. A blog posting of such nature would have definitely scared me away from such a facility, professionals do not take to this type of tactic. I actually find it hard to believe that Stonehawk would see this type of message on their blog as helpful but wonders never cease with this situation.

Okay, I got my password and posted a comment. I have not seen it appear yet so it must have to go through a review process first??? Not sure but I will watch to see if it comes up. My comments on this blog appear immediately, no santizing evident.

A few people on alt.religion.scientology Usenet group have reported no response when trying to login to the Stone Hawk blog, which leads me to suspect it is a blind gut. They don't want comments. They don't want members, because they know what the result would be. So don't hold your breath.

Now, just for clarity, this is a basic message board, which isn't quite the same thing as a blog. The intent of a blog is for one person (or group) to get their voices heard, and they have the ability to preclear responses, and tailor them to their liking.

A message board is meant to be for discussion. While I can and do delete posts, they're limited to spam or abusive behavior, which we haven't seen here yet. I despam this board daily, but it would go against the entire spirit of the board to delete posts I don't agree with.

Please don't hold your breath waiting for Stone Hawk to accept your registration. They aren't about communication, the blog is a promotional whine about how great they are and how everyone else is lying and picking on them for no reason. If there are ever any comments allowed on that blog other than the prefabricated usual regurgitation, I'll eat a hat! (It must be a chocolate hat, but I WILL eat it!)

i was able to login and register on the blog and after i said my peace i wrote them a nice ps that said if they didnt post it i would no that the blog was just a front and that they unlike vince daniels did not want to hear from the other side. im waiting on pins and needles for my post to show up (haha) the blog is such a joke by the way worriedmom the for the most part the so called professionals running the place are 18 to 23 and most didnt even finish high school im sure they didnt learn how to use spell check yet. but i know (from exprience) that they do know how to word clear (us a dictionary) you get to spend a whole week on that what a joke

good luck
to us all
mere

ps. is there any chance that fearnot is related to someone at stonehawk just food for thought

pss. sorry if not but you sure sound that way sometimes

fear not

IM SORRY i owe you that i miss read the way the posting was and didnt realize that it came from the narconon blog site and was not your writing im sincerely sorry for the mistake please except my apologe

sorry
mere

I just went to the narconon blog site to see if just by chance they posted my listing and guess what i found the the topic "NARCONON UNDER ATTACK" was gone. it was the front page this morning when i wrote my response but now i even searched in there search box and it was gone

thing that make you say hummmmmm

mere

Hmmm...I get a '404 file not found' as of now. How amusing. Why do you think they yanked the "blog?"

Could it be that it was so full of lies, and they're considering how it would look in court?

Happily, the content is still available here! Bwahahahahaha!

:o

No way Jose!!

Apology accepted, my dear.

:)

I'm glad we have the blog webbed, just in case.

On a side note. I went searching to try to figure who Kate's brother is, but I came up empty handed.
Wanted to run him through Scientology completion list.
I don't know what Kate's maiden name is.

Does anyone recently at Stonehawk remember the guys name?

The whiny Narconon defense blog wasn't pulled. Thinking they were clever, they moved it:

http://www.narcononstonehawk.com/blog/drug.../uncategorized/

Nice try, cult. We have it again. Somebody you trust is one of us.

XenuTV responds to Narconon Stoned Hawk's lame defense:
http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2007/02/25/stonehawk-responds/

Another nice deconstruction of their sad, sad justification.

It is interesting that the blog was moved, my kind response is still not posted. However, they do now have some kind of information on what the blog is about. My post would have fit their "rules", and it is so odd that no other posts have been added to their discussion forum..... I really never thought my post would ever be seen on the web but I wanted to try for "proofs" sake. To be continued for sure...

This is a typical response when people don't "respond" to treatment... the idea that "they aren't ready". This is an extremely irresponsible frame of mind for a provider of treatment services. Narconon would never truly be interested in helping those who are "ambivalent" or who want to change but can't (by the way this is what addiction is all about... I WANT TO CHANGE BUT I CAN'T) explore that ambivalence in an attempt to resolve it. Addiction is extremely complex and to suggest that the Narconon program in it's entirety can "CURE?" addiction is a joke... really, it is a joke.

As to the comments about the family... Maybe Narconon should consider a "family week" where family members can come to the facility and work with their loved ones!!! Many responsible treatment centers offer this service and in fact require it for their clients. You see Narconon would NEVER do that. Now although there were family members at the "certificate celebrations" (which by the way it seemed everyone was on their best behavior) they would never suggest that family members come in and do TRs or sit in the sauna. Can you imagine how outraged family members would be! :blink:

And if Narconon is not associated with Scientology... then they should take the damn Scientology dictionaries and "Tech libraries" out of the facility. They should also take all of the staff that are "members of Scientology" out of the facilities as well... which by the way they could never do! They would have no staff left!

JMO
mr.mac

I understand that Kate's brother is "on leave" from the Stonehawk facility. So I do not have a name but I hear he is a "legend" at the place. Ugh!! It is times like this that I am glad I have a son that is 6 ft 2 inches and about 220 lbs.

I was curious, does anyone know if Vince Daniels has replied to this Stonehawk blog? I would love to find out.

Thanks!

To Anyone and all--

It took me since last August to finally ge "some" records from Stonehawk. What they did not send were my student files, sauna files, intake records, detox records.
My attorneys will now try to get those.

A few other little details about Stonehawk, besides the filthy conditions and chaos and the overall mind games. When I was in Stonehawk, Kate's husband (Greg Littlewalker, who is featured in one of their pamphlets as the sauna guy) was in ethics (which all of you know is the high school version of detention at stonehawk) for going back out and drinking. This came from his very own lips.

For all of you people who defend narconon, we all know our friends and family can be enablers, and we know you have to want to stay clean, but when parents and family are desperate, narconon steps up to the plate with their claims of success. How do they know who 'succeeded'?? There is no follow up, no phone calls after you leave. Of 15 or so people that were in stonehawk when I was there that I contacted afterward all but one were back out using. If you consider success as finishing the program, wellll hellloooo--most are dumped off by family and told when they finish they can come home, many are trying to reduce jail or prison time if they complete, some are threatened with divorce or losing kids if they don't finish. Remember most students are hundreds and thousands of miles from home.

Anotherlittle irony is that narconon will go out of state and out of their way and jump thru hoops to pick you up and get you to a narconon facility(and the big $25,000 check (I guess I would too) BUT when it comes time to go home you have to come up with the money to get to the bus station or airport--you are on your own.

There was a gal that was there when I was there, Jen, who had no where to go and no place to stay and no job--a fowl mouthed person who pitched a fit when she was denied a staff position. Then Walla!!! guess who was on staff the Monday after she graduated escorting me to a doctor's appointment.

Also, consider what staff members have any real education in rehab or addiction or do they have any degrees. Most of them just go thru a 3 or 6 week training (which is just a heavy dose of what they went thru in narconon.) We use to joke there that those who couldn't make it in the real world worked at narconon. Some of the staff went back out and used and then came back, went thru ethics and some training and now are staff--we called them retreads.. There was an arrogant smart aleck know it all staff member (Anthony) in the detox when I was there. He would go on and on about how the detox was his baby and he made enuf money in his lifetime to last many lifetimes, was in the CIA or a Navy Seal and on and on--he was just about everything in his life, blah blah. Anyway, I thought he was some big wig at narconon. Later I found out he was just a trainee making minimum wage. And ofcourse most of them live there after narconon takes out a dollar an hour for room and board.

While I'm no prude, the language there was disgusting--both by the students and the staff. I bet I heard the word fuck 1,000 times a day, and yes by the staff. Is this their way of 'connecting' to young people? trying to get on 'their level? A staff member, Dominic, was reading the list of one students 'everything I ever did wrong in my life, (a requirement of one of the books), and told her she could do better--c'mon we want to see the dirt. That's real class, real professionalism. Oh, by the way does making this list sound a little like the 8th step in AA?

I could go on and on, from ceilings caving in to overcrowding, to people sneaking out, to drug use, to sex. One of the best is that they took the hand sanitizer out of all the classrooms because a student drank it. Also, John, one of the transport staff had sex and drank with one of the students. He was finally fired and the student went to ethics. She finally graduated, went back to drugs and is now in prison.

This place was drama after drama after drama. Want more stories? Believe me I've got them. One thing I personally believe is that rehabs should not be coed. While our sleeping quarters were separate, there's way too much tetosterone and hormones flying around. It's just a disaster waiting to happen. Actually, this place was more like a big college dorm where everyone was braking all the rules. I could cronicle my 4 month stay there for a movie.

I'll quit for now but I will certainly post more as I go thru my detailed notes of every long agonizing day I was there.

betsyl

Had to get back on again--

Stop with the SUCCESS figures!!! Success for any rehab should be how you do AFTER rehab NOT finishing a rehab. Ofcourse you can have high figures of completion. How about tracking all of the 'graduates' one week, one month, one year, and many years AFTER.

In response to someone who posted about getting parents or loved ones involved. Great idea. Let them sit next to their loved one for two hours in a straight chair. Let them be 'bull baited'. Let them scream at an ash tray to stand up and sit down in that chair for hours on end. Let them ask if 'birds fly' for hours at a time----and on and on.

Let each parent spend one day next to their child for each book you go thru.

If my family could have seen my room, they probably would have yanked me out then. As it was the one visit they came to was enough. (Of course, you can only visit in certain areas.) The bathroom was filthy, the drinking fountain had cig butts and brown water and cups in it. I wanted them to see my room--five women to a room, ceiling caving in, knobs on draweres missing. The well water turned everything brown, dressers stacked two high, a 5 gallon leak bucket collecting water. I understand they have since remodeled and cleaned the place up, thankfully, for the next poor souls being duped.

I finished my program at the Albion facility, which I will admit was at least clean. But I distincly remember a day when some banking official or someone was coming thru the facility. I was in my room when Per and some three piece suits were going thru and Per made a comment about how 'there was still room for another bed in my room and that could mean more money. Swear to God.

And another thing, why bash other rehabs or programs? Why the need to do that, especially when yours is supposed to be so good. I heard many many times how Alcoholic Anonymous is junk/trash/rediculousworthless. Twelve step program JUST DON'T WORK according to narconon.

What a trip.

betsyl

Thanks for the posting "fearnot"

I have never before read such a bunch of crap. Narconon, can point the finger where ever they want but we all know addicts saying over and over again "Do birds fly" or "do fish swim" (((you would only understand these phrases if you were in a Narconon center))) does not cure addicts. No one can say "I am still using drugs because Narconon failed me" because its not true. If an addict wants truly to stay off drugs there is a free program called "Narcotics Anonymous" that if the program as it states to work the program, you will stay clean and they are not out ther to scam anyone.

How convenient is it for Narconon to blame the addicts failure for Narconons lack of moral obligation when it comes to treatment, for Narconons lack of a real program.

NARCONON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HELPING ADDICTS AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FILTERING YOUR MONEY INTO THE "CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY" PERIOD.

If they are this "great organization to help addicts", then why are they always's defending themselves. why all the secrecy, why all the lies. Why don't they tell addicts and families about the program and about the money filtering into the "Church of Scientology" in there web site or before someone attends?


Oh...and what a bunch of BS about the claim of 75% of people who go through the progam stay clean. 75% may go through the program- 10 to 20% are people returning because the progam didn't work. Only 3-5% of addictics going through any drug treatment progam auctuall will stay clean.

Oh man... I was sad to hear that Greg Littlewalker was drinking again! As much as I disagree with Narconon and their "program", Greg was a nice guy. It just hurts to think that he buys into all that Narconon bullshit. This is a great example of a real alcoholic being left untreated and duped by Narconon.

BTW, Greg was the "Sauna Specialist" at Arrowhead when they opened.

mr.mac